michael john grist ([info]manfalling) wrote,
@ 2008-03-03 19:36:00
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Robots and Evolution
Are we going to evolve into robots?

I rather think, and hope, that we are.

Today I was struck by the idea that it is really going to happen. It is the next step in the evolution of the human race. Evolution using genes 'naturally' takes millennia to be effective. Besides- we're already at the top of the game that genes play in here on Earth, so there's no productive pressure to improve- other than through sexual selection.

The realm left to evolve in is memes. Richard Dawkins throws this word around. It just means- ideas. Knowledge. Culture.

Memes evolve. And they do it damn fast. 2000 years ago to now is a blink of an eye for 'regular' genetic evolution, with nothing at all going on, but for memetic evolution it was an endless revolution- thanks chiefly to writing, allowing the easy and accurate transfer of memes.

Fast-forward to now, and we have the Internet, and a greater population than ever, and more mixing and cross-fertilization of ideas then ever before, and it's clear we're at the most fertile point we've ever been.

The next steps involve either genetically altering ourselves- take our 'natural' evolution into our own hands, or cyborg-izing ourselves into new robotic forms. Or both in combo. Why choose to live in this frail, outdated, outmoded, slow, decrepit, pain-feeling body, if we don't need to? It's obsolete. We NEED to upgrade.

Pretty soon the rich will be walking round in the bodies of T-800's. And power to them. They're the early adopters that make it possible for the rest of us to tag along behind.

Our genetic and fleshy presence will be reduced to ever-enlarging brains in metal suits- as our various bodily limbs and systems are farmed out to more resilient and efficient robotic replacements.

Like Michael Jackson in Moonwalker.

I've always loved Transformers. I think it would be awesome to be a robot.

The one sticking point seems to be the soul. But it's pretty clear that if there is any such thing- then it's in the brain, since we can lose just about everything else and still be 'alive'. So if we keep the brain- no problemo.

If you don't believe in the soul- then there's no problem at all, and why not just build robots to outright replace us from the start? Build them, grow them, feed them all our memes, make sure they have 'neural nets' that can learn and grow, like Data, then just let them replace us to promulgate and grow our culture out beyond the stars. If they can think and learn, and see a sunset, and read a book, and come up with new ideas after taking in all that input- but with infinitely greater storage capacity, processing power, and input/output modalities, it would be ridiculous of us to demand to stay alive.

We were vehicles for our genes. But that's done. Now we're vehicles for our memes. For our culture. And since robots will be infinitely better vehicles for that particular cargo, hadn't we better all start readying ourselves for obsolescence?

It's what happened to Homo Erectus and our other ancestors. Is anyone begging for them to come back?

Unless of course- you believe in the 2001: A Space Odyssey theory of evolution- wherein apes millennia ago only became sentient after being seeded with alien DNA- and thusly that evolution itself could not create a beast as complex as a human.

But if you think that, you're probably crazy anyway, and likely the first to be crushed under the boot-heels of the T-800 I've got marked out for myself.



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You say you want a revolution, man...
[info]thesaucernews
2008-03-03 04:29 pm UTC (link)
Have you seen an old movie called "Creation of the Humanoids?" It's pretty dull and schlocky but it actually deals with this theme from another direction, in this case, a race of machines developing religion and trying to procreate sexually (but it's mostly people making wooden speeches).

It would be impossible for us to 'evolve' into robots, as evolution is a blind and random process, though I suppose if you take conscious will and technology into account as part of that process, it might count as evolution. Technically, I think, we already are robots, just biomechanical in nature. You're just talking about trading in one machine architecture for another.

I think even if and/or when we come to the point where we can upload and transfer the entirety of human consciousness onto a chip (see Altered Carbon, GITS, etc all the way down to Neuromancer, which used tapes, but still) people will still worry about the soul, insist that we have them, and that God is Displeased with the way we're doing things. I think that fear is instrinsic to our OS, probably something we carried over from whatever primate ancestor.

I think Kurzweil's been promising the advent of Singularity and immortality through upload and cybernetics at around the 2030s if I remember correctly. As I watch the internet and internet culture evolve, though, these ideas seem entirely too clean, and too naively optimistic... I don't know if I'd want to spend eternity as a virtual machine on a server farm. And by 'eternity' I probably mean 'until someone crashes it loading someone's mySpace page or until the power goes out or until the funding dies.' I definitely don't want to be an early adopter.

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Re: You say you want a revolution, man...
[info]manfalling
2008-03-04 10:32 am UTC (link)
Your 'Creation of the Humanoids' sounds rather like the Cylons in the new Battle Star Galactica. They are robots advanced beyond humans, but desiring nothing other than to be just like humans, to pro-create like us, to live on our planets, and generally hang out in coffee shops and be normal.

That to me seems cringingly pathetic. If you're a robot race, and you have the stones to nuke all the humans in the known universe, then don't be so pathetic that you seek only to ape your once-masters and folow in their foot-steps.

Evolution- you are right- it's a blind process. Genes are transferred- the good serviceable ones last and cross-fertilize and multiply not by any direction or guiding hand, but just because they are what works.

Evolution of memes works the same way. Of course we could say people attempt to guide culture. But culture course corrects. It takes us down cul-de-sacs like Communism, Nazism, and whatnot. Not to belittle the terrible things that happened under those systems, but they were experiments conducted by evolution, and they failed. What seems to work is democracy, but who knows what will work in the future.

Before the chief changes were the climate and the land. Dinosaurs fit their climate and land. Now, humans top the charts, and the chief changes are from technology. Which memes will survive best in this technological climate?

I believe that the process of meme evolution is as random as it is for genes. It will work simply because the process will keep working until it DOES work. If turning ourselves into robots, basically more advanced and capable machines, works for the memepool's advancement- then that is what will ultimately happen. And I can't see how it won't. Memes are power, just as muscles used to be, then brains. New brains that can encompass, create, and destroy memes at rates far faster and with more connections and more creativity than we can- that is surely a greater vehicle for memes than we sorry creatures- with our little and slow brains, imperfect bodily vessels, and so no.

Would I like to be a program on the Internet? Not really. I like my body. But who knows. Perhaps we'll be able to lease out bodies, or own bodies, the way people own cars. Rent one out, take it for a spin. Enjoy some sex-play, a work-out in the gym, swimming in a cool clear ocean. Etc..

The next question is- what about gender? If genic transfer through sex is no longer the big deal- what need have we of men and women as separate entities? Other than for body-rental for sex-play?

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[info]deridetenebras
2008-03-03 09:44 pm UTC (link)
wont the brain deteriorate?

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[info]manfalling
2008-03-04 10:33 am UTC (link)
It probably still would, which is why we'd need to go silicon, or upload ourselves into a neural net like Data's.

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Sex and Robots
[info]texaninjapan
2008-03-05 01:29 pm UTC (link)
Rent bodies?

I think part of our memes ARE things like sex and gender roles and love and other emotions.

Which is why being a robot would suck.

MHO, of course.

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Re: Sex and Robots
[info]manfalling
2008-03-06 10:59 am UTC (link)
That's true. One thing I worry about for when we go robot will be- will we still have much drive left? So much of human art, creativity, and accomplishment is done in efforts to get laid. If that getting laid goal is gone- then what?

Well, there is also the drive of curiosity.

Love- who knows. Isn't love just a chemical imbalance in the brain? That's a tough question. If we were all on an Interweb together- like the Founders in the Great Link in 'Deep Space 9', probably pair-bonding wouldn't be such a big deal. We'd be able to experience free love and goodbye constantly with every spark in the filament- somewhat like the love cult in Heinlein's 'Stranger in a strange land'.

That would be cool, I think. Though again, stripped of our bodies with their hormones that drive us to sex, would that be a big deal? But then, once it was gone, would we really miss it? Perhaps by current human standards we'd seem robotic, emotionless, but I'm not sure about that.

Do our moral compasses come from hormones? I don't think so. They are part of our programming, part of our memes, and to some extent even part of our genes. So morality will not disappear.

Gender roles may well become more flexible. If bodies are interchangeable, like cars, one year I might try on male, another female. Why not? It would become natural.

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