michael john grist ([info]manfalling) wrote,
@ 2008-03-06 19:59:00
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god is not Great


I just got done reading Richard Hitchens' polemic, 'god is not Great'.

Phew.

Previously I've read 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins, 'The End of Faith' and 'Letter to a Christian Nation' by Sam Harris, atheists both, and to give some balance to it all- 'No God but God' by the devout Muslim Reza Aslan.

Dawkins talks about genes and irreducible complexity a lot. He also talks about religion as a form of child abuse. Sam Harris does- I don't really remember. It can't have been that specific.

Hitchens though goes after Islam. Of course, he goes after Christianity too, and all the rest. But Christianity et al seem a little wimpish compared to the extremities of fundamentalist Islam, as he presents it.

He lays out a case that Christianity effectively got defanged in the reformation. The texts got revised, the sermons demystified. I don't know a great deal about it, but when you look at Christianity today, though there are still plenty of mad idiots who'll do anything 'for God', the vast majority of Christian seem to have their heads screwed on not so completely wrong.

Though when I think of Christianity I tend to think of the meek Anglican religion I was semi-raised within. Not the head-cases in the American bible-belt. England seemed a very secular place to me growing up, and religion had no teeth to do much of anything- at least as I saw it.

Anyway. Hitchens goes after Islam. These are people who believe the text of their holy book the Koran is true word for word. Every single word is immutable, cast in stone direct from their god's mouth. Despite the fact that the language it's written in is massively open to interpretation.

It has to be the most unapologetically dogmatic faith on Earth. Even the pope changes his mind, issues apologies from time to time. But Islam cannot. Any acceptance that even one word was untrue could bring the whole thing crashing down. Or- it would just be labeled as 'Satanic verses'.

Hitchens talks about the moral cowardice of the West to face up to Islam and tell it to buck up its ideas. Instead, he says, the West gets afraid, of madmen who blow up skyscrapers and themselves for a chance at 40 virgins in 'the afterlife'.

It's powerful stuff. He's basically saying that Islam as a culture/meme as it stands now is inferior to the enlightenment values/culture of the Western world, simply because they are static and unable to advance. Islam demands complete belief in words some guy made up 1,500-odd years ago. Isn't that ridiculous?

Sensible people no longer even try to defend the Bible now. And if they do, they get shredded in reasoned debate. Al Sharpton against Christopher Hitchens wouldn't even tackle any of Hitchen's points about the Bible, because he must have known there was no way he could win. When you discredit one line as immoral, like a commandment to slay all the Malekites and take their land, who's to say they aren't all discreditable? Then what is left? The argument that the Bible teaches morals, and that without the Bible and God to back it up we'd all live in chaos without any form of morality, is itself shredded if we start saying- well, we only follow the good commandments in the Bible.

That's displaying an ability to judge moral acts from immoral acts, independant of the word of God. So clearly we are able to make our own moral discernments without God above or the book in hand.

Once that argument is made, and accepted, organized religion has little more than a shred of Deism left to stand on. "You can't disprove my amorphous, non-dogmatic God exists!"

Sure. But neither can I disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Are you on a par with that?

And that according to Hitchens is the main problem with Islam. Any argument, discussion, satire, or debate about immoralities or inconsistencies in the Koran is considered blasphemy or hate-speech and stopped. Like the image of Muhammed, it is above reproach. So what can be done? How can these people of this faith get out from under the dogmatic dictates of a fictitious entity that allow for/mandate cruel discrimination against homosexuals, women, and unbelievers? How can they bring their holy book out into the light, air it out, and start thinking critically about which bits are really moral?

Hitchens says it won't be easy. He calls for a new enlightenment. He encourages people to step up, as he has done, as Salman Rushdie did before him, along with lots of others down the ages, and say to Islam, as well as to the Intelligent Design people, and to anyone else trying to paper over truth with ancient dogma- "Are you for real? Come on. Let's sit down and discuss this thing like rational adults."



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smart guy
(Anonymous)
2008-03-06 02:30 pm UTC (link)
Hitchens was on Real Time with Bill Maher last week, he's a frequent guest, and one of my favorites. He knows his stuff, but has a rather prickly way of speaking. Has extremely strong intellectual power, not someone you would want to debate without being totally prepared.

Jason

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Re: smart guy
[info]manfalling
2008-03-06 03:13 pm UTC (link)
He called Jerry Falwell a despicable little toad of a man- on the day he died, on CNN!

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[info]poliphilo
2008-03-06 03:04 pm UTC (link)
My fear is the Islamic reformation could take hundreds of years. Ho hum!

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[info]manfalling
2008-03-06 03:18 pm UTC (link)
Is that possible though? The rest of the world is on Mars and the moon, technology advancing by leaps and bounds, the Internet in the ether accessible to anyone- is it possible Islam could so sequester itself that the clerics could maintain control?

It's amazing North Korea manages to exist as it does. But with $100 laptops pumping out into circulation, the whole world getting wired and Wikipedia, I don't see how much longer it can last.

When China finally reaches its tipping point, and becomes cool, and just one of the boys, maybe after this coming Olympics, I'm thinking this whole Asian region is going to change.

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Can. Mike
(Anonymous)
2008-03-06 03:31 pm UTC (link)
Hm, Was going to buy this book just the other day but I thought to myself, well I already see eye-to-eye with his philosophy already, will I really learn anything new by reading this?

Felt this way after reading Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World where he de-mystifies everything relating to religion and spirituality. A good read and well written, but I felt like I already knew everything he was trying to say. Didn't come away feeling enlightened.
So what do you think? Same story here? Do you recommend I read it anyway?

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Re: Can. Mike
[info]manfalling
2008-03-07 04:05 am UTC (link)
Yeah I can lend it to you. He's quite different from Dawkins- seems smarter perhaps (?), and certainly a bit more ready to kick some ass. Plus, like I say, he takes on Islam more thoroughly and directly. The stuff about not 'respecting' Islam's right to have special privileges due to its religion is especially interesting.

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[info]deridetenebras
2008-03-08 07:10 pm UTC (link)
i don't know how to write this in a coherent fashion.

i seriously take issue with Hitchens' ideas. i find him patronizing and offensive.
i do see the point that Muslims seem to hold the Qur'an in much higher regard than Christians hold the Bible. But I seriously believe that they can get over that like Christians did. there are Muslim people who have gotten over it and who are working to get others over it. E.G. Shirin Ebadi, Nawal el-Sadaawi.

What a religious text says is not as important as the people's experience. People will rethink their interpretation of and the value of their religious text according to their experience.

The problem is NOT Islam and it is also not the Qur'an; the problem is Islamic fundamentalism. Which is in fact a VERY new thing. as far as i know, they stem from only the beginning of the 20th century (when the Islamic World was trying to deal with the imminent fall of the Ottoman Empire). Qutb's Signposts which is the definitive crazy-Islam book wasn't written till 1964. They did not in fact gain real power until the mid-20th century. This was a response to the economic and social problems of the day and the evident failure of secular governments to address these issues. After the fall of the Ottomans, the Islamic world turned to secular ideas, esp. socialism, Communism, and Pan-Arabism. But these systems largely failed for whatever reason. The most obvious example of this is Nasser's failure to liberate Palestine, solve Egypt's economic problems, or unite everybody into a Pan-Arab state.

What I am trying to say is Islam does not have to be dogmatic and crazy; it has become dogmatic and crazy in response to the great economic and social and political issues of its time.

Another perfect example of this is Iran. the CIA took out the socialist, democratically elected leader of Iran (Mossadegh) and installed a cruel secular dictator, the Shah, who brutalized his people. the people, oppressed and dissatisfied turned to the idea "Islam is the answer" in the hopes of creating a more democratic society. the revolution of 1979 put ayatollah khomeini and the rest of the religious establishment into power and they seriously screwed up the country because they don't know how to run a country. and now the people want a more democratic society; this is evidenced by the election of Khatami, who ran on a platform of reform. Unfortunately, his hands were tied by the religious establishment, and he couldnt do much. But still, it shows that the people want change!

And i would say that much of the crazy Islam on display today is not based on the Qur'an or Islam itself really. Or people exaggerate certain ideas in the Qur'an and ignore others. E.G. The Taleban prevents women from working and ignores the fact that many are starving war widows and the Qur'an is FULL of passages about caring for widows and orphans (because Mohammad was an orphan). Or the Taleban funds mosques with drug money. e.g. the Qur'an in fact forbids "cruel discrimination" against Jews and Christians. and Islam was in fact progressive (for its day) towards women. it can totally become progressive again.

Honor killings (when a woman is killed by her male relatives for being raped, adultery, sex outside of marriage), suicide bombings, the burqa, purdah (when women are forced to live indoors), discrimination against women, etc, etc, are not Islam. It is people (like the Taleban) seriously twisting Islam for political power.

in short--
once the economic problems of the Middle East are addressed as well as the Iraq war and ESPECIALLY the Israel-Palestine issue, fundamentalism will seriously recede in popularity.

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[info]manfalling
2008-03-09 02:39 am UTC (link)
I take the point that it's not necessarily the fault of Islam or the Koran- but the people who interpret. The same arguments are made within the Christian faith- and of course there are crazies within Christianity who live awaiting the rapture, stocking up on tinned goods so they'll be ready for the end-times, and so on.

One important thing I learnt from Hitchens, and I guess from Reza Aslan before him, though the point didn't take so well at the time- is how open to interpretation the Koran is. Arabic is a language that can be seen to mean many different things- as you say- it could be 40 virgins or 40 young boys.

The Bible goes the same way. Hebrew for things like 'virgin mother' can also be taken to mean 'young girl', which is quite a large difference.

So it's about interpretation. And that comes through the lens of the mind of the people viewing/using the text in question. The Koran is variously described as a book of peace and a book of holy war. So- it's the people, and as you say- socioeconomics.

Evolution of memes will take care of all this in time, I believe. The world is flat. Those countries/governments/people in possession of the best memes, technologically, governmentally, commercially, etc, will be the ones that rise up.

Terrorism, extremism, fundamentalism- they'll probably always be around at the margins. Right now, Iran, Pakistan, Israel, they're all at the margins- fighting over old dogmas and refusing to move forwards.

When they do move forwards, as China is, as India is, they'll have to put away their old grievances. And if they don't, well, they'll drive themselves into the ground in systems that just can't keep up, their countries will collapse like the Soviet Union, broken into pieces, and the reconstruction can begin from scratch.

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[info]deridetenebras
2008-03-09 02:37 pm UTC (link)
I haven't studied Quranic Arabic , but my (Modern Standard) Arabic professor is always warning us about the power of the Arabic language and how easily it can be misinterpreted. he's always saying stuff like: "our language is so important. people get killed over it!"

I think that the people of Iran, esp the younger generation are realizing that Islam is not the answer. I don't know if they'll rise up or what. I don't know what they will institute to take its place. I think in many ways, the culture is authoritarian itself which it also contributes to the current dogmatic nature of Islam

Haha memes, I don't like Dawkins.

I'm not sure how much religious dogma Israel relies on anymore for its excuse in ignoring International law & UN resolutions. There are those, esp, the illegal settlers, who think God gave them the Promised Land. but others think theyre justified to it after the Holocaust. which, i guess, is its own kind of dogma.

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[info]deridetenebras
2008-03-08 07:19 pm UTC (link)
oh and on homosexuality--

+ I obviously don't support pedophilia, but my prof interprets the Qur'an as promising young boys rather than 40 virgins in heaven.

+ also-- in the rural areas of Oman there is a totally accepted tradition of the "xanith". which is basically a "Third Sex". They are male prostitutes who service men and who have a complicated gender role that is in some ways male and some ways female. This is obviously "against Islam". And is an example of people being able to get over the Qur'an

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-24 03:59 am UTC (link)
Hey Mike,

Have you checked out "zeitgeist the movie yet"? It is an interesting documentary that is basically one big conspiracy theory. Starts out looking at the "myth" of Christianity and make some interesting points. Goes in 9-11 and then to say that the world is run by an international group of bankers that are trying to make a united world economy. I am not sure I believe all of it....or any of it, but it makes for an entertaining argument. Anyways, google it and there are thousands of copies of the movie out there. I think you can stream the latest version from zeitgiestthemovie.com....or a site similar to that.

Brady

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